Counter-Therapism Rule
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A thread of the posts by @cait.bsky.social. They read as follows:
I had my first talk therapy session with my new therapist and she hit me with the "you're very self-aware" ☹️not the "pleasure to have in class" of therapy
that's right, I know all the tools and have developed countertools so they no longer work. welcome to thunderdome
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cybervseas
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Blibly
in reply to cybervseas • • •MrNobody
in reply to Blibly • • •myyass
in reply to Blibly • • •W98BSoD
in reply to Blibly • • •maria ~
in reply to verdare • • •like this
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JayDee
in reply to maria ~ • • •like this
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maria ~
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TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾
in reply to JayDee • • •JayDee
in reply to TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾ • • •TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾
in reply to JayDee • • •JayDee
in reply to TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾ • • •This seems to come down to a difference in definition. You are viewing self-awareness as only able to be positive, and having an implied lack of bias.
I don't expect either of those, I just view it as someone thinking about how they think or act, regardless of whether bias exists in that process. It's all self-awareness.
TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾
in reply to JayDee • • •I am not at all viewing it as only able to be positive; it should be accurate. Why call it awareness if it's not reflecting reality?
That's not self awareness, that's meta cognition
JayDee
in reply to TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾ • • •Metacognition is a sub-portion of self-awareness that does not look at behavior. They're intrinsically tied to one another, but self-awareness is broader than metacognition.
I'm not saying either of our definitions are incorrect - 'self-awareness' changes meaning somewhat depending on whether it's being used philosophically, psychoanalitically, etc. And the fact it's now used by the general public its meaning naturally shifts. I am saying your definition is more exclusionary, though, treating it more as a virtue to strive for rather than just an action one takes.
Functionally, if the only self-awareness is accurate self-awareness, then it can only be an advantage, and thus positive.
I would also argue that awareness does not need to be reflective of reality - you can be aware of hallucinations you are experiencing, or you can be aware that you are experiencing hallucinations. Both are awareness, but only one is more accurate to reality.
TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾
in reply to JayDee • • •That's fair, I glossed over the "act" part of your statement
Also fair, but the context here is it being used as a compliment from a therapist
Ah I see, I misunderstood what you meant by positive; I thought you were referring to the bit about being aware of your strengths.
I do think exclusively accurate self-awareness can absolutely be a disadvantage though.
... Mostrar másThat's fair, I glossed over the "act" part of your statement
Also fair, but the context here is it being used as a compliment from a therapist
Ah I see, I misunderstood what you meant by positive; I thought you were referring to the bit about being aware of your strengths.
I do think exclusively accurate self-awareness can absolutely be a disadvantage though.
Mm- I think I agree semantically, like technically it can mean that, but it's pretty confusing. Consider how the session note looks when written each way:
vs
The latter, to me, sounds self contradictory
JayDee
in reply to TʜᴇʀᴀᴘʏGⒶʀʏ⁽ᵗʰᵉʸ‘ᵗʰᵉᵐ⁾ • • •Alright I think we're about on the same page now. It's more how we are perceiving the compliment by the therapist.
Like, yes, self-awareness in itself is important for self-improvement, and some folks completely lack the habits of introspection and self-analysis, so at least having self-awareness is good. I would say that it's more a first step, though, a skill that can be leveraged for improvement.
I've previously had a similar conversation with one of my former therapists where he commented on my self-awareness, but did later talk to me about my anxiety and self-conciousness being from that self-awareness. Essentially, focusing on how I'm acting and thinking, and making too harsh of judgements on minor mistakes or inconsequential failings.
That's apart of why I don't view self-awareness as the state of being accurately dialed in about yourself yet, but instead just in the habit of noting your thoughts and behaviours, regardless of whether you've actually figured out your biases or not yet.
verdare
in reply to maria ~ • • •Self-awareness is a good thing, but it’s also the bottom of the barrel when fishing for compliments. In therapy, specifically, the implied sentiment is, “Well, at least you know how fucked up you are.”
She’s making the comparison to the “pleasure to have in class” line, because it’s similar. If a teacher genuinely has good things to say about a student, it’s probably going to be more specific (i.e. – they were inquisitive, a quick study, made their peers laugh, etc). “Pleasure to have in class,” by contrast, is a generic compliment that doesn’t really say anything.
EDIT: Okay, so based on a few of the latest responses, I felt that I should clarify something. I don’t think people who use these phrases intend for them to be insults or demeaning in any way—this includes Cait’s therapist in the original post. It’s just that it can be perceived that way, which is what I think the post was making fun of.
If you’re also an int
... Mostrar másSelf-awareness is a good thing, but it’s also the bottom of the barrel when fishing for compliments. In therapy, specifically, the implied sentiment is, “Well, at least you know how fucked up you are.”
She’s making the comparison to the “pleasure to have in class” line, because it’s similar. If a teacher genuinely has good things to say about a student, it’s probably going to be more specific (i.e. – they were inquisitive, a quick study, made their peers laugh, etc). “Pleasure to have in class,” by contrast, is a generic compliment that doesn’t really say anything.
EDIT: Okay, so based on a few of the latest responses, I felt that I should clarify something. I don’t think people who use these phrases intend for them to be insults or demeaning in any way—this includes Cait’s therapist in the original post. It’s just that it can be perceived that way, which is what I think the post was making fun of.
If you’re also an introspective, self-critical person, please don’t take someone saying this to you as an affirmation of your faults. It’s almost certainly an innocuous and genuine observation.
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Tiresia
in reply to verdare • • •I can see that you have good intentions...
Really, though, there is no bottom of the barrel. Self-awareness is something that some people in therapy genuinely lack. Good intentions are something that some people genuinely lack. Kindness is something that someone people genuinely lack. Being capable of being unobtrusive for others is something some people genuinely lack.
These are not the bottom of the barrel, but solid foundations you can build from. Someone with good self-awareness can give constructive feedback both in session and irl. Someone with good intentions will actually try to improve rather than use therapy as a place to vent. Someone who is kind will use the skills and motivation they gain in therapy to build a nice community for themselves because it is reciprocal.
Imagine OOP except without self-awareness. Their subconscious has developed countertools that make therapy ineffective but they are not able to describe those countertools or even know th
... Mostrar másI can see that you have good intentions...
Really, though, there is no bottom of the barrel. Self-awareness is something that some people in therapy genuinely lack. Good intentions are something that some people genuinely lack. Kindness is something that someone people genuinely lack. Being capable of being unobtrusive for others is something some people genuinely lack.
These are not the bottom of the barrel, but solid foundations you can build from. Someone with good self-awareness can give constructive feedback both in session and irl. Someone with good intentions will actually try to improve rather than use therapy as a place to vent. Someone who is kind will use the skills and motivation they gain in therapy to build a nice community for themselves because it is reciprocal.
Imagine OOP except without self-awareness. Their subconscious has developed countertools that make therapy ineffective but they are not able to describe those countertools or even know their functioning. All they can say is that the therapy doesn't work. That sucks so much worse than the situation OOP is actually in.
Sarcasmo220
in reply to Tiresia • • •Ever since I played Control I only read that as Object Of Power
mossy_
in reply to Sarcasmo220 • • •it stands for Object Oriented Programming, actually
/s
Skunk [any]
in reply to verdare • • •BurgerBaron
in reply to Skunk [any] • • •verdare
in reply to Skunk [any] • • •I don’t think your therapists necessarily meant it in an insulting way.
Oh. Yeah, time for a new therapist, then. Can’t expect healthcare professionals to share all of your political beliefs, but not simping for genocidal ethnostates is a pretty low bar.
Skunk [any]
in reply to verdare • • •im_fine_sandy
in reply to Skunk [any] • • •I don't the only that's necessarily what your therapist was getting at.
I'm not defending her stance on Israel btw. Also her stance on Israel might imply religious beliefs and that's a whole other conversation.
However, I disagree with the commenter that said self-awareness is a good thing.
If you want to go through life empowering others, avoiding doing any harm of any kind, and leaving the world somehow better for your existence, then yes self awareness is a good thing.
However, if you want to be happy, satisfied, and go through life being comfortable and not require therapy, then self awareness is most definitely not a good thing.
That is to say, self awareness is highly correlated with anxiety and depression.
CentipedeFarrier
in reply to im_fine_sandy • • •Curse you, autistic introspection!
Mrs_deWinter
in reply to maria ~ • • •As a psychotherapist, working with people who are self-aware is a pleasure. I wouldn't ever say that to someone if not meant as a genuine compliment.
Although I believe not many of our patients actually are as self aware as they think. I think we as humans often are good in introspection where it's easy and comfortable to do so, while glaring over pretty blatant cognitive errors in some other parts, and this is usually where problems arise and disorders develop. And interestingly some people seem to think of themselves as someone who's perfectly introspective but just for some external, unchangeable factor immune to any kind of positive change. Maybe they could feel irritated about the compliment, because in their minds it reinfoces their idea of being helpless against their problems (in the sense of: I already know everything, it's just not possible to change anything or I would've already done that)? I could imagine that's how I would feel, but of course it's just a guess.
Carlos Solís
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danekrae
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in reply to the_q • • •DaveyRocket
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in reply to the_q • • •Redditmodstouchgrass
in reply to danekrae • • •Skunk [any]
in reply to danekrae • • •Skunk [any]
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danekrae
in reply to Skunk [any] • • •Boomer Humor Doomergod
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SlurpingPus
in reply to Carlos Solís • • •I prefer to be honest with myself. While I don't saddle my friends with my problems.
mirshafie
in reply to SlurpingPus • • •The point is to be kind to yourself. You should be honest with your friends, but you should make efforts to frame that honesty in a caring and positive light, ensuring them that they're safe with you and that you're raising your concerns out of love for them.
The therapist's point is that most people know to treat they're friends that way, but tend to be much harsher and less generous with themselves. So: cut yourself some slack, is the message.
CultLeader4Hire
in reply to Carlos Solís • • •Carlos Solís
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phdepressed
in reply to Carlos Solís • • •How you would treat a child, how your childhood self should have been treated not how you were treated as a kid. If a kid came up to you with your problems what would you say?
Take the criticism for example. Would you not tell the kid some along the lines of "that sucks, bud. Its not really your fault. I've been there and made it through, you can too."
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PyroNeurosis
in reply to CultLeader4Hire • • •Randelung
in reply to Carlos Solís • • •dropdrip
in reply to verdare • • •verdare
in reply to dropdrip • • •My understanding is that it’s the best method we have at the moment, but might still be ineffective for as much as half of all patients who undergo it.
So, yeah, it kind of sucks, but no other intervention has a better body of evidence behind it. Our understanding of mental illness is unfortunately just very limited.