More thermal paste = more heat dissipation, right?
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saltesc
in reply to cannedtuna • • •How does someone get to know thermal paste is a requirement without accidentally seeing how it's required?
This is like knowing petrol is needed for your new car, then just stopping at some point, referring to the note "Get petrol" and deciding pumping it into every orifice the car has is what that means. "I assume that's what that meant. I'm in a rush. No time to Google how to pump this "petrol" thing into the car."
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in reply to saltesc • • •Air goes in the intake, and we need fuel and air to mix. Throw some in there!
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in reply to cannedtuna • • •Thorry
in reply to Washedupcynic • • •This actually looks like pretty much perfect application, probably from the factory done by a machine. The contact looks very good and there isn't too much that squeezed out the sides. With thermal paste, too much isn't an issue, it will squish out the sides and just be wasted but not hurting anything. Too little is an issue, as it will cause overheating and might even make the device unusable or dead. So for machine applications they always do a little bit more than really needed.
But in this case I think they got it bang on, for the CPU it didn't even leak all over the contact frame, but did get the entire chip itself. Same for the GPU on the right, nothing on the contact frame, but excellent contact on the chip. The pattern it left there indicates absolute perfect contact.
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Washedupcynic
in reply to Thorry • • •Love how you ignored my response to your response that provided a scientific rationale demonstrating that you don't have a clear understanding of how thermal paste works, and you just doubled down on flawed opinions. Carry on friend.
Edit: Based on the law of heat conduction, as the paste thickness rises it will reduce heat flow based on the math of the formula. Less is more.
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Thorry
in reply to Washedupcynic • • •Meh, I don't think it's worth having a discussion about to be honest.
There is a HUGE difference between the perfect optimal application of thermal paste and the reality of manufacturing devices with thermal paste.
Like I said, this paste is applied by a machine, it's extruded automatically from a dispenser. They don't want to use too much, because it costs more (although thermal paste at large scales is very cheap and it's not like they are using a super specialized Thermal Grizzly product, just run of the mill thermal paste). But they very much don't want to use too little, because if they use too little the device will overheat. The increased rate of RMA is much more costly than the entire stock of thermal paste used for the device. Especially on CPUs with specific hot spots, that need coverage.
If we look at the image the coverage is perfect, not a single bit of the chip is uncovered. So they didn't use too little, which means it's already a win.
Now the question is did they use too much? Not really. The thermal paste has a known viscosity and the heats
... Mostrar másMeh, I don't think it's worth having a discussion about to be honest.
There is a HUGE difference between the perfect optimal application of thermal paste and the reality of manufacturing devices with thermal paste.
Like I said, this paste is applied by a machine, it's extruded automatically from a dispenser. They don't want to use too much, because it costs more (although thermal paste at large scales is very cheap and it's not like they are using a super specialized Thermal Grizzly product, just run of the mill thermal paste). But they very much don't want to use too little, because if they use too little the device will overheat. The increased rate of RMA is much more costly than the entire stock of thermal paste used for the device. Especially on CPUs with specific hot spots, that need coverage.
If we look at the image the coverage is perfect, not a single bit of the chip is uncovered. So they didn't use too little, which means it's already a win.
Now the question is did they use too much? Not really. The thermal paste has a known viscosity and the heatsink has a known mounting pressure. These two combined will make sure the layer of thermal paste in between is actually optimised in terms of layer thickness. The excess material will just squish out the sides under the mounting pressure.
But when we actually look at the image, we don't see a lot squished out the side at all. Like I said the contact frame is still visible. If it were actually too much that would be totally covered. I also think it looks like more than it actually is. The marble pattern we see in the paste indicates very good contact between the heatsink and the chip, indicating good and even contact pressure. And especially when looking at the GPU, that pattern is absolutely perfect.
Could someone redo this paste by hand, use less and get an even better layer thickness? Sure! Would that really matter? Not really, it might improve thermals by 1 or 2 degrees C. It will have no impact on the actual functionality of the device, it's lifespan or capabilities. It would on the other hand take a lot of work and an expert hand to do so. Which means it either needs to be done by a human, which is expensive, or some fancy machine would also be expensive. Why would they spend that money, on something that has zero impact on the end product?
They could probably use the exact same machine, load it up with some better quality thermal grease and get the same improvement if they wanted to. At minimal costs.
The rules are just a little bit different when it comes to industrial scale engineering. There's more to consider than just what the perfect application of thermal grease would be.
If you want some more info about the real world application of thermal paste in computers, here is an article from Gamersnexus thoroughly debunking the "too much thermal paste" argument.
gamersnexus.net/guides/3346-thermal-paste-application-benchmark-too-much-thermal-paste
“Too Much Thermal Paste” – Benchmark of Thermal Paste Application & Quantity | GamersNexus
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TropicalDingdong
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in reply to Washedupcynic • • •this has got to be a troll post. right? RIGHT?!
as you pointed out, just get rid of the air gaps with the absolute minimal amount of paste.
::: spoiler my back woods method
ensure your heat sink does not have pre-applied paste or a pad. apply a small amount of paste. cut the thickness with the short edge of an old credit card at about a 30° angle, using just enough pressure to bend the card slightly so the smooth surface of the card presses paste into voids and the trailing edge of the card removes excess to level the surface - you will likely still be able to make out some chip package markings through the paste. remove all edge excess and spillage. fit your heat sink. done.
:::
Washedupcynic
in reply to Thorry • • •Optimal thermal paste thickness (bond-line thickness) is critical for heat dissipation. The layer should be thin, ideally between 25 µm and 50 µm, which is roughly the thickness of two sheets of standard paper. The paste's sole purpose is to fill microscopic air pockets between the metal surfaces for better thermal conduction. Source, I spent 6 months in a laboratory experimenting with and producing thermal pastes and insulators. I spent days cutting and cleaning copper squares, applying the experimental pastes, and testing thermal conductivity via the application of Fourier's Law of heat conduction.
Q = kA(Δ T/Δ X)
Where Q is heat flow, A is the cross-sectional area, and Δ x is the paste's thickness.
Another source.
That's way more paste than you need for 50 µm application.
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Bytemeister
in reply to wewbull • • •Adding to this... Airgaps is not emphasized enough here. There is a reason why you don't do closed shapes when applying thermal paste, and why so many system builders have strong opinions on how to apply it.
Personally, I go for an X or a % where the os are actually dots.
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DarkSirrush
in reply to Bytemeister • • •Fedizen
in reply to wewbull • • •Who is saying that is the major consideration here?
Its obvious the major problem here is ustable movement and flexing when those large sink plates are screwed down will not distribute the paste very well resulting in a higher risk of air gaps. So they left a lot of room for it to press out and it doesn't look like they used a ton of that space.
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toddestan
in reply to Chaotic_Altruist • • •The chips are going to have a similar tolerance to heat. They're all silicon and the fundamentals of how they work are the same. So if may be making a chip hotter than it normally would get, but still within its operational limits it'll still work fine.
Though there is the argument that if the chip otherwise wouldn't get that hot that you're subjecting it to more thermal stress by subjecting it to wider temperature swings than it would otherwise experience. However, I wouldn't worry too much about that as by the time that might be a problem, something else would have given out long before that.
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MonkderVierte
in reply to Blue • • •Too much thermal grease is a barrier to heat, because it should only replace the air (a potent thermal insulator) between uneven surfaces. Oil would be better, but that runs away.
Which is also why you shouldn't smear the grease, because then you get air pockets. Rice corn or spaghetti method displaces the air on putting the cooler on.
I Cast Fist
in reply to MonkderVierte • • •I'm not familiar with those methods and "rice corn or spaghetti" makes me think you boil the the paste first
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in reply to I Cast Fist • • •Idk what rice means here, but I can guess corn is just a bead in the center and spaghetti is the same thing but you have a narrower tube so the ball looks like spaghetti.
Rice sounds like it wouldn't be enough paste to cover the die. Like you're just putting down paste in a very small line the size of a grain of rice. That's not gonna spread enough, bruh.
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