Discord mods. It contributes to a sense of place, it makes people feel like the channels are rooms. It's very important for giving a community its own unique vibes.
Element feels soulless because the channels are always changing order. It feels ephemeral and artificial. Discord feels solid.
Esta entrada fue editada (sábado, 3 de octubre de 2026, 1:35)
Sorting is not ordering. What your are talking about is ordering. I agree that Element currently has no ordering and that is kind of a bummer, however when you use a messanger like apporach it's fine because no one orders or sorts their WhatsApp/Signal/whatever conversations by name.
no one orders or sorts their WhatsApp/Signal/whatever conversations by name.
That's why those apps fail to create a sense of place and thus community like discord does. It's a subtle difference, but it has a powerful psychological effect. People don't spend all day hanging out with their family on Signal.
Most people aren't looking for sense of community in a chat. People spend all day hanging with family in whatever common option they have, not in discord.
Esta entrada fue editada (sábado, 3 de octubre de 2026, 16:05)
My family lives scattered across America, I in Australia. We spend hours in voice call each day. We use discord for roleplaying games, to watch TV together, to play video games, to chat, to discuss philosophy and politics.
Terminally online trans furries are a culture. This is how we participate in the community. Other cultural groups concentrate in one place because of heritability, but we're randomly born to normal parents, so we're scattered across the world. You might call us a diaspora. Living together in meatspace is a privilege many of us spend years working to attain.
That's what Element can't do. And if you don't understand having a family online, that's fine. I'm just explaining for the person who asked.
Very airy. Every one of those things can be done on element and other platforms. Your feelings about it has little to do with element's (in this case) capabilities. The only real complaint you've mentioned is sorting of rooms it (probably) can be a dealbreaker for some people.
Also you don't know either me nor other person and for some incomprehensible reason assume that everyone but you and your community can enjoy the company of their loved ones constantly offline.
Esta entrada fue editada (sábado, 3 de octubre de 2026, 16:04)
More likely an amalgamation of several open source projects glued together with a bunch of proprietary stuff for Cisco hardware, desk phones, some weird PBX system and so on...
It's far superior, but it may need a hyphen. Otherwise most USians won't recognise the pun and will just think that's how Euro-peons spell it. Which is only hilarious until the new spelling is an official US variant.
my brother in Christ, Discord and Teams both need like 2x the RAM so don’t talk to me about that.
I don't compare a hot-dog to a pile of dog poo and say "it's good food".
Idk left side has contacts and groups, right side chat. What exactly is not user-friendly there?
slow to load up
long sync times
high battery drain for mobile users
room concept, as opposed to contact chats
electron app sucks donkeyballs - wastes lots of screen space where no chat is displayed
options way too hard to find at times (like how to add existing rooms to a space)
no online/offline status of contacts
trust model with device verification is unintuitive for non-techie users (admitted this one has improved with the emojis years ago and with cross-device certification)
I could probably find a bunch of more reasons if I thought longer about it. These are all issues that don't keep me from using the app, but they are severe enough that I can't convince non-techie friends to use element as a messenger. For matrix, there are superior messengers for sure, albeit those are then limited in functionality.
I'm gonna pile a few on (I've mentioned them elsewhere in this thread, but..)
Those aforementioned "rooms?" Element took the ability to search them away but you could still join if you knew the room addr (search may be back now), why? Because of the HUGE CP spam problem those rooms had (have?). I'm not pushing an app that could possibly show my mom that shit.
Onboarding is atrocious, I had to set it up for everyone I tried it with myself, the normies cannot figure it out. "They should get good,” yeah I agree, but they aren't gonna, so your move.
It pisses metadata to any server you federate with. If you self host a contained ecosystem, maybe, but if you federate with matrix.org (as you almost have to do), the ex AMDOCs employees who started it as an AMDOCs project before breaking off to form The Matrix Foundation get more info than I'm comfortable with considering their history of spying on telecommunications.
Ok I admit some of that isn't UI issues.. still bad.
yeah, the other person trying to refute my points is wilfully ignorantly defending bad features / UI and protocol decisions. They completely failed to notice that I personally am okay with the app, but was quoting reasons why it is not good for non tech-savvy or at least free and open source motivated users.
Yeah they should be fighting me lmao (not that I want to), I'm not ok with the app. It's dogshit and so is the linux electron app, both barely work and break themselves all the time, the UI is overly complicated (even for some of the features I do like, like having three different passes [pass, recovery, and idr the third I had] was actually pretty sweet, but my less techy friends had issues, one lost his whole acct, yes he's dumb but that ain't changing, still love him lol). Even if another app actually worked (and last I saw ALL lack feature parity with Element) Matrix itself is still a metadata pissing AMDOCs (Israeli company, spied on US telcom, for those unaware) originated protocol, honestly I'm out on that alone.
I'm a Delta Chat supremacist lmao, down with Matrix.
I did some basic reading on the Amdocs links, and it appears Matthew and Amandine did not directly go there, but their previously employers were acquired by Amdocs, and their teams integrated with the new company. Considering they left that arrangement in 2017, I am inclined to kinda still trust them that matrix is designed to be private. Do you have any links on the "metadata pissing" thingie? As far as I am informed to date, matrix did not send communication metadata for any given room to federated servers outside those servers who have users in the room?
I'll try to find a link to the metadata issues, but for now I'll just say it's senders, receivers, timestamps, and room "joins" I think. Also reactions and read receipts aren't encrypted for sure.
Sure, "only the various server admins get the metadata," but when you don't trust the admins of the largest and "default" server? That's an issue. Also nothing stops [insert group that worries you] from spinning up a server to collect metadata, unless as I said you host your own separated server without any federation.
As for the AMDOCs connection, this is enough for me to be out, make your own decisions:
The initial project was created inside Amdocs, while building a chat tool called "Amdocs Unified Communications",[6] by Matthew Hodgson and Amandine Le Pape. Amdocs then funded most of the development work from 2014 to October 2017.[7]
To be far, I find Matthew quite approachable from the official Matrix channels, so far he's given me no reason to be suspicious - and Israel in 2017 was not nearly as bad as today's Israel. Although yes, secure communications technologies from there shouldn't be trusted even from 20 years ago. However, I'd say the matrix protocol is more complex than "but it's from Israel".
Yeah, but then plenty of spies are personable, you'd never suspect Anna Chapman was actually Anna Vasilyevna Kushchenko until she gets arrested. Actually they almost have to be somewhat personable or they can't do their jobs.
Though in 2017 Epstein was in full swing (I know, Mossad still denies involvement, but I don't trust them and Jizzlane's dad was one of their top agents until they killed him), the AMDOCs spying scandals go back to at least 2002, NSO Group released Pegasus in 2011, that same company (NSO) is made up of veterans of Israeli Intelligence Corps SIGINT unit 8200 which was founded in 1952 (also known as the "Central Collection Unit of the Intelligence Corps"). I don't trust Israel now, 10y ago, 20y ago, doesn't matter, I'm tired of surveillance no matter who is driving.
I'd also rather have a completely independent messaging protcol, preferably simple - and I am using XMPP for that reason - for almost all developments it'll have to be a tradeoff, sadly :/
Same here, I'm using Delta Chat. Honestly it's pretty great and has all the features I need from a chat app, and it's decentralized and resilient allowing for multi-relay set-ups. It's not a discord replacement, though.
Yeah I honestly never used it myself, but people seem to want a direct feature replacement without the privacy issues and to be fair Matrix is closer to fitting that bill than Delta Chat. I personally don't need that, so Delta works for me (but even if I did need it, I still can't trust Matrix).
yeah matrix is closer to discord - then again most gamers (discord is mostly gamers, isn't it?) are totally lost anyways because they still use microslop's fascist OS
Very true. Though tbf some people use it for other stuff, it's gaming related but the flash cart for my GBC is just made by some Aussie and he runs his tech support on his discord server (kinda like how GrapheneOS does with their Matrix room.) That's the unfortunate part to me, I'd rather both be a phpBB forum lol.
I don't compare a hot-dog to a pile of dog poo and say "it's good food".
Then what is your definition of lightweight? A command line chat app?
slow to load up
literally loads within 3s
long sync times
maybe if you didn't open it for a year yes, otherwise it's in the sub-second area
high battery drain for mobile users
Mine is <1% for the last day. If you don't setup proper push messaging which then requires the app to constantly wake up - yeah than it might be a problem.
room concept, as opposed to contact chats
How exactly is this a problem?
electron app sucks
Teams is also using Electron Microslop Edition
options way too hard to find at times (like how to add existing rooms to a space)
Just go into the settings and you will find 99%
Moving a room to a space has nothing to do with options and is a very uncommon task.
... Mostrar más
I don't compare a hot-dog to a pile of dog poo and say "it's good food".
Then what is your definition of lightweight? A command line chat app?
slow to load up
literally loads within 3s
long sync times
maybe if you didn't open it for a year yes, otherwise it's in the sub-second area
high battery drain for mobile users
Mine is <1% for the last day. If you don't setup proper push messaging which then requires the app to constantly wake up - yeah than it might be a problem.
room concept, as opposed to contact chats
How exactly is this a problem?
electron app sucks
Teams is also using Electron Microslop Edition
options way too hard to find at times (like how to add existing rooms to a space)
Just go into the settings and you will find 99%
Moving a room to a space has nothing to do with options and is a very uncommon task.
Rendered
Synapse implementation: matrix-org/synapse#9644
Element Android implementation: element-hq/element-android#6047
Element Web implementation: matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk#8043
FCP proposal: #...
There are also technical issues. I tried to use Matrix Element with my partner a couple years ago and it stopped working multiple times and we gave up on it. Even when it "worked" half the time notifications didn't.
I tried element X, it also stopped working on me like element regular did, and like this other poster complained about.
My friends also bailed on it because it wasn't working (as did I) and I'm not about to say "no guys some random lemmy user says it's good now." They'll reply "what the fuck is lemmy and why switch back from Delta Chat while it's working so well?"
Also there's NO way I'll be able to convince the one who saw the CP spam in the Raspberry Pi room to go back, and there's no way I'm gonna recommend to my parents and shit that they use a chat app that very likely could spam them with it (not likely they'd find the public rooms, still not taking the chance.) I don't really need to be known as "the guy recommending the CP app," personally.
And I had to basically set it up for every contact I was able to convince, meanwhile when we switched to Delta Chat I just sent the invite link and they made accts and bam, no problem, and now the recent update made that even easier because instead of just defaulting to nine.testrun.
... Mostrar más
I tried element X, it also stopped working on me like element regular did, and like this other poster complained about.
My friends also bailed on it because it wasn't working (as did I) and I'm not about to say "no guys some random lemmy user says it's good now." They'll reply "what the fuck is lemmy and why switch back from Delta Chat while it's working so well?"
Also there's NO way I'll be able to convince the one who saw the CP spam in the Raspberry Pi room to go back, and there's no way I'm gonna recommend to my parents and shit that they use a chat app that very likely could spam them with it (not likely they'd find the public rooms, still not taking the chance.) I don't really need to be known as "the guy recommending the CP app," personally.
And I had to basically set it up for every contact I was able to convince, meanwhile when we switched to Delta Chat I just sent the invite link and they made accts and bam, no problem, and now the recent update made that even easier because instead of just defaulting to nine.testrun.org it picks a few relays at random, so now I don't even have to set up multi-relay for them (aside from the contacts I got on before this update) next time I see them in person.
Matrix is fine with an alternative client. I use Commet, and it'd pretty much serve as a total replacement for Discord for me if not for the fact that nearly none of the communities I'm in are bridged there.
Okay, hear me out: what if you click on a contact in your contact list and start typing a message, but instead of writing in the message field, it instead focused a random contact in your contract list whose name starts with the last letter you typed. Anyone? People love this feature, right?
I'm not too convinced FLOSS devs are mentally flexible enough to implement all of the glory of MS Teams.
What about freezing and locking the whole system ~45 minutes in a meeting every time? Or hear me out, lets display the content of the window in the centered rectangle that takes 15-20% of window and it can be resized down but not up?
Esta entrada fue editada (viernes, 2 de octubre de 2026, 18:33)
For me: When using the teams app on my work laptop, something prevents the clock multiplier in my processor from working correctly - it's locked to 600-800MHz (according to the performance tab in the Taskmanager) and everything is very sluggish. As soon as I exit the meeting, it will jump back up to several GHz as it should...
What? Teams updates its UI so often it feels like with every update they move buttons around just to fuck with the user. Even outlook has been updated to a somehow even shittier UI. If I had a choice I'd choose the UI from the 1000000 times slower era because at least it was functional.
that's not even true. they are trying to follow the latest tech giant design trends making everything with huge gaps, rounded corners and huge memory usage, and the ui lagging more than anything 20 years ago
How about the feature where you get a notification that someone said something in a group chat but if you click on the notification it opens the private chat with that person instead?
Or the one where you enable recording a meeting and only after the meeting does it tell you that it couldn't actually save anything to OneDrive so there's no recording? That's some advanced UX engineering right there.
Or the one where it hides less used "applications" and decides that the only ones it should hide are the chat and the calendar. Not everyone can come up with that.
Or how it shows a banner telling you to update even if your client is company-managed and especially if you're using their web client.
FLOSS can't hope to compete at that level.
Esta entrada fue editada (viernes, 2 de octubre de 2026, 20:18)
My favorite feature is when there is a message in a chat you are already looking at and you have to click out of it and back in before the notification will go away
I thought that was just me! My second favorite feature is that a full 75% of my notifications in a day are Facilitator bot messages, which I need to repeatedly click out of and into to clear.
You're underselling it! Sure, what you discribe would be a nice feature, but what makes it truly great is the combination with a slow and unresponsive UI. It's thought provoking genius!
Did it register the click or do I have to try again? Maybe I should meditate to fully harvest the value of this 0.5s Zen moment, because it also might just take much longer this time? Does a tree fall, when there is no one to witness it? Does a click matter if it is inside Teams?
I get this on FB's Messenger, it notifies me that there's a new message in the thread. Yes, it's my message, the one I just sent, thanks Meta, I'm aware of it.
Or if someone reacts to your message while you're still in that chat, you need to go to a completely separate notification feed to clear that one (though maybe they fixed that one... Or maybe I just automatically ignore that other feed because it only ever has noise).
We could spend the rest of our lives trying to make a search function less useful than what Microsoft puts in every single one of their apps. Fucking up a search bar is the new fucking up an instant messenger.
Tbf, the MS Team's search hasn't failed me yet. Unlike outlook which wouldn't find an email when searching for the exact subject line, even while I have the email open in another window just to be sure I'm not hallucinating how bad the search is.
Or sometimes the text bar just randomly loses focus and for whatever reason doesn't default to getting focus when you type anything. I'd bet money this "feature" was the result of someone with more power than intelligence accidentally sending something embarassing because they didn't realize teams had focus. Hell, I bet a good portion of Microsoft's dumbshit behavious are the result of incompetent people getting power over how something behaves and basically boomerizing it (making it work in a specific and weird way that only makes sense to them).
Yeah, there's that angle also. Like how you can start phoning it in when you have a shitty manager that kills your passion. I have a feeling that that is part of the overall corporate culture at MS rather than just the case for people unlucky with which manager they ended up with.
Assuming you meant that "focus" as a pun that refers to their ability to focus on their work to the point of doing it well.
If you meant that it might have been some rogue developer that snuck in that change instead of a rogue manager, yeah, that's also possible.
Honestly I don't know why the majority don't just use something like teamspeak. I still use 3 point something version and it still works. Do I really need to see you on my screen? Like does that add anything or are we pretending to be futuristic?
I guess? Okay this is kind of a mean take on it, from my experience, with having managed a company of over 300--which is tiny, if you would stfu and fill out your sheet and send me an email, I would prefer that. I already did your background check and dive.
I know this isn't a very "professional" take but that's how it's always been for me. The amount of parties and alcohol is really the surprising part.
I spend half my day in meetings with colleagues, partners and clients and it adds a lot.
If the other person is speaking in a language where you are not native / fluent, seeing their mouth helps. I'm experimenting with AI-based live transcription (eww, AI, slop, I get it) but it only works real time with English at the moment.
If you are explaining something you can see if they are following, if they are skeptical about certain claims, etc. Many cultures are very conflict-averse and won't challenge you directly, or even ask for clarification.
And for me personally it helps me remember the person much better, and remember what we talked about last time when I see the face again.
I'd argue that is the opposite of futuristic, it helps our primitive brains work as they are used to.
I'm experimenting with AI-based live transcription (eww, AI, slop, I get it) but it only works real time with English at the moment.
the real problem there is not AI slop, but if you are basically uploading their voice to a company. if you are doing it locally, I would say fine. LLMs are better (not flawless) with translation than facts.
"Many cultures are very conflict-averse and won’t challenge you directly, or even ask for clarification."
I actually get this, especially if they have to answer to you. I always thought this was dumb, like it doesn't make me any different than any other person just because I'm in meetings with high ranking officials. The whole office was scared of me when I got the job. And I'm like ... is it because I'm walking around with a cane and looking like Dr House?
The media in this post is not displayed to visitors. To view it, please go to the original post.
Most accurate description of Element I've ever heard to be honest. It's literally just Discord, with all of it's bloat, but with a protocol that wants to have "security" bolted on. And all of the security related dialogs have race conditions in them. Actually, not just in Element, all clients, even nheko and fluffychat, have race conditions in the fucking security dialogs. All of my devices are just unverified now, I just gave up.
XMPP at least functions reliably, if you ignore all of the protocol extensions and use it like IRC with images of course.
Tox supermacy! Though the main and only good Android client got archived. But like, whatever. Fuck phones anyway.
Esta entrada fue editada (sábado, 3 de octubre de 2026, 7:19)
astrachat.com/ paid XMPP. It claims the US army, apart from a few other government entities around the world, use it. I find this funny because this implies someone integrated Grok into XMPP.
Also, the old name for XMPP is Jabber. That sounds less techy, you know.
the trick is to not mention XMPP to the end users. if they dig deep in the app settings they can find it out, but otherwise all that end users need to know is just, download the app named conversations, and use this domain and username. the domain could likely be hidden from them by deep linking, and sending the link in a company email. then they just need to log in as anywhere else.
Tox did their own insecure crypto and got roasted by the Wireguard dev
Everyone does crypto in their own way and roasts each other. On a quantum physical mathematical psychological level unidentified flying object Yugoslavia something something. I only really believe stuff in relation to exploits when there's a demo.
element is much lighter weight, my god wgat fuck are you even dreaming up about, discord is fucking unresponsive and horrible to use, I do agree that the device verificstion still barely works sometimes, and you can also just use a different a client, as far as web clients go cinny is really good honestly, cinny is fast and responsive it even feels almost native, which compared to garbagecord is a night and day difference in usability beyond DOING ALL OF THIS WHILE USING LESS RESOURCES, for android Schildichat Next is my choice
Esta entrada fue editada (sábado, 3 de octubre de 2026, 11:24)
Here, the webapps are measured via the very scientific method of Firefox about:processes, doesn't even account Firefox itself which is like 760 megs (decimal MB or MiB? I am not sure) if I were to believe it.
On amd64, loonix with glibc and all that crap, zero memory pressure (assuming I am reading "shared" correctly in htop which I assume to be libraries like glibc and glib): - Discord: starts at 800 megs, garbage collects down to 704 to 710-ish (overburned CD size?); turning on/off equicord doesn't affect it much - Element: 367 mystery units after clicking around for a while, 341 unfocused - Nheko: 362 MiB, 201MiB shared (probably with Firefox, can't close cuz I am typing here rn) - Dino: 334MiB, 116 shared (probably with Firefox) - Mumble (random server with a long text greeting and nobody in voice): 169MiB, 130MiB shared. - random forum with a bunch of emotes and table decorations (for comparison sake): 69
... Mostrar más
element is much lighter weight
Here, the webapps are measured via the very scientific method of Firefox about:processes, doesn't even account Firefox itself which is like 760 megs (decimal MB or MiB? I am not sure) if I were to believe it.
On amd64, loonix with glibc and all that crap, zero memory pressure (assuming I am reading "shared" correctly in htop which I assume to be libraries like glibc and glib): - Discord: starts at 800 megs, garbage collects down to 704 to 710-ish (overburned CD size?); turning on/off equicord doesn't affect it much - Element: 367 mystery units after clicking around for a while, 341 unfocused - Nheko: 362 MiB, 201MiB shared (probably with Firefox, can't close cuz I am typing here rn) - Dino: 334MiB, 116 shared (probably with Firefox) - Mumble (random server with a long text greeting and nobody in voice): 169MiB, 130MiB shared. - random forum with a bunch of emotes and table decorations (for comparison sake): 69 meters (NICE) - qwebirc (1 server): 61 megs - Weechat (6 servers): 65392 bytes, out of which 33396 shared (with system daemons I am guessing). - Toxic: 44648 bytes, out of which 0 are shared. Plus ~90000 for Alacritty (65160 shared when multiple).
Yeah I gave up on Element/Matrix too, for other reasons.
First of all the clients don't work for shit and every update breaks something IME, got tired of that. Also for all of my normie friends and family it was "too hard" to use, I disagree, but regardless what good is a chat app if I have nobody to use it with? Further, the one friend I did convince to join also joined the public Ras Pi room, and some dickhead posted CP in it, he saw, and then I had to explain "no, this isn't a 'pedo app,' that is spam and they get banned," and I'm gonna be real I don't want to have to do that again and I can't in good faith recommend my mother use a goddamn app that very possibly could spam her with CP.
So, I moved to Delta Chat. Fixes all those problems, no complaints. Easy to use, easy onboarding, no discoverability, just chats.
what security dialogs? and what race conditions? do you know what that means, or are you just throwing around words?
if you mean the "verify your new device" dialog, yeah, it has a problem. it won't appear most of the time on clients that were not open when you sent the verification request from the new device. I don't know why, and this is not comfortable, but then I can start verification from a device I already have, and it will work. or I can also just fill in the password from my password manager, which you surely have too.
but I haven't seen other problems with it recently.
XMPP at least functions reliably, if you ignore all of the protocol extensions and use it like IRC with images of course.
which does not even have a bolted on security that way.
Though the main and only good Android client got archived.
calling element classic good is a bit of a stretch. it was very slow.
That series of dialogs and pretty much everything else, including "verified devices" menu. Also, apart from race conditions it's often just desync. Like, right now for me, nheko and Element say everything is unverified but fluffychat says everything including itself is verified.
Not Element Classic, I meant aTox (Tox for Android). It still functions, though.
Esta entrada fue editada (sábado, 3 de octubre de 2026, 12:43)
Like, right now for me, nheko and Element say everything is unverified but fluffychat says everything including itself is verified.
its not desynced, it is just not presented well. I think when it shows whether another device was verified, it actually does not show if you have completed verification of that device on your account, but instead whether that device is trusted by the current one (for purposes of sharing keys and whatever). in short, it's not "the user account trusts the device", but "this device trusts that device".
when you verify device A with device B, they will mutually trust each other. if device B already trusted devices C and D, device A will immediately start trusting them too. if you then log in on device E and you don't verify it with any of the others, it will basically form a distinct "trust group".
in your case it seems there are also cases when device A says it trusts B, but B says it does not trust A. how long ago did you verify your nheko, element and fluffychat devices? it looks like their verification could
... Mostrar más
Like, right now for me, nheko and Element say everything is unverified but fluffychat says everything including itself is verified.
its not desynced, it is just not presented well. I think when it shows whether another device was verified, it actually does not show if you have completed verification of that device on your account, but instead whether that device is trusted by the current one (for purposes of sharing keys and whatever). in short, it's not "the user account trusts the device", but "this device trusts that device".
when you verify device A with device B, they will mutually trust each other. if device B already trusted devices C and D, device A will immediately start trusting them too. if you then log in on device E and you don't verify it with any of the others, it will basically form a distinct "trust group".
in your case it seems there are also cases when device A says it trusts B, but B says it does not trust A. how long ago did you verify your nheko, element and fluffychat devices? it looks like their verification could not complete, maybe one of them had a bug at the time or crashed before properly saving its database.
both issues won't solve themselves automatically, you will have to verify the unverified device again. or if it does not work, report the problem with logs with the function in the app, on both sides.
Not Element Classic, I meant aTox (Tox for Android). It still functicryptosystem
I see. tox seems to be faring worse in security. in matrix, encryption is optional in the protocol, but it's built on well studied cryptosystem. so far when it fails, it's people not being able to read messages they should, not unexpected people being able to read messages. and that's because of flaws in key distribution.
in tox, it seems encryption is mandatory, but they roll their own cryptosystem. and their cryptosystem has flaws that nonexperts commonly run into
Jason Donenfeld, wireguard creator to expert:
I think when your homebrewed crypto protocol falls to basic crypto 101 vulnerabilities that modern AKEs are explicitly designed to prevent, it's time to pin up the red banners telling people not to use your stuff.
Hello, I found this source code confusingly written (and downright scary at times) and the specification woefully underspecified and inexplicit, so it's entirely possible my understanding of the ha...
Well, it was like 2 years ago? I had a different Element session than now (new one now for testing), nheko and fluffychat, and I pressed every possible button and nothing happened. When I open nheko, a dialog box says "Activate encryption"; "to make this device trusted {blah blah blah}" with a big "Verify" button. Pressing it does the same as closing the dialog, so a whole lot of nothing. Same right now. I did try logging out and back in on different devices, back then only though.
in tox, it seems encryption is mandatory
Because that's how it's routed, yes. Peer to peer with fewer points of centralization (still there for node discovery and TCP<>UDP tunnels and shit). The message encryption and the transport encryption are the same.
I stopped reading there. I mean, good thing to know that it's possible (especially for potential punks using it and whatnot), but I feel like opsec is fucked regardless in this case.
Hello, I found this source code confusingly written (and downright scary at times) and the specification woefully underspecified and inexplicit, so it's entirely possible my understanding of the ha...
When I open nheko, a dialog box says "Activate encryption"; "to make this device trusted {blah blah blah}" with a big "Verify" button. Pressing it does the same as closing the dialog, so a whole lot of nothing. Same right now. I did try logging out and back in on different devices, back then only though.
I don't use nheko, I think it should have shown a menu saying something like "waiting to accept verification request". thats what other clients do.
did you have any other client opened on another device when you pressed verify?
It's hard to get people to move from what they know and use to something else. If you moved them to Google, they'd say it's shit. Same for Zoom. They all do some stuff better than others.
Element is perfectly servicable. They're using Element Pro which is billing itself as built for government. The first problem is they called it pro, which sets expectations higher than they should be. It's not going to make them go WOW this is so much better at first glance.
Trying to onboard a gigantic number of people is going to be difficult for a system that doesn't already have a gigantic number of people on it. I can only imagine how rough the system is at the moment, but it'll work out.
Ehhhh... There's so many issues with it. It is equivalent to if Microsoft Teams was a Matrix application. The problem is that the UI is so clunky, buggy, and in general not robust enough compared to other matrix applications. Other matrix applications just don't have things implemented and also feel the need to copy Element's terrible designs.
Esta entrada fue editada (sábado, 3 de octubre de 2026, 22:25)
Wait...element is only text and voice correct? It doesn't support video calls? Esp group ones. Please correct me if I'm wrong but used matrix proto a while ago....back then it didn't even support file uploads. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. Tbh, matrix protocol is pretty good how much I've used it
Correct but it requires an anal probe to function correctly. Plus the administrator needs to wear nipple clamps, nobody knows why it was programmed that way.
I honestly might prefer Teams over Element, and I have a Matrix server. Element is dogshit, it is so frustrating to admin. At least Teams gives you a full featured pile of shit.
That reminds me - how are XMPP servers going? They seem to be a much more lightweight alternative, and with the right XEPs enabled they should match the overall functionality of Teams, right?
red_green_black
in reply to cm0002 • • •like this
rem26_art y NoneOfUrBusiness like this.
red_tomato
in reply to red_green_black • • •TheTechnician27
in reply to red_tomato • • •‘Absolute s–t’: EU’s Microsoft Teams alternative draws bad reviews from officials
Sebastian Starcevic (POLITICO)like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
damniticant
in reply to TheTechnician27 • • •silver
in reply to damniticant • • •RustyNova
in reply to TheTechnician27 • • •Lol element got horrendous ux. It almost made me go to alternatives like revolt/stoat.
Luckily I found sable and it's pretty great
esc
in reply to RustyNova • • •It's alright? What's wrong with it?
I'm using both web and android version. There are some things that I don't like, but they are nothing compared to fuxking teams.
Grail
in reply to esc • • •carrylex
in reply to Grail • • •Grail
in reply to carrylex • • •Discord mods. It contributes to a sense of place, it makes people feel like the channels are rooms. It's very important for giving a community its own unique vibes.
Element feels soulless because the channels are always changing order. It feels ephemeral and artificial. Discord feels solid.
carrylex
in reply to Grail • • •Grail
in reply to carrylex • • •That's why those apps fail to create a sense of place and thus community like discord does. It's a subtle difference, but it has a powerful psychological effect. People don't spend all day hanging out with their family on Signal.
esc
in reply to Grail • • •Grail
in reply to esc • • •My family lives scattered across America, I in Australia. We spend hours in voice call each day. We use discord for roleplaying games, to watch TV together, to play video games, to chat, to discuss philosophy and politics.
Terminally online trans furries are a culture. This is how we participate in the community. Other cultural groups concentrate in one place because of heritability, but we're randomly born to normal parents, so we're scattered across the world. You might call us a diaspora. Living together in meatspace is a privilege many of us spend years working to attain.
That's what Element can't do. And if you don't understand having a family online, that's fine. I'm just explaining for the person who asked.
esc
in reply to Grail • • •Very airy. Every one of those things can be done on element and other platforms. Your feelings about it has little to do with element's (in this case) capabilities. The only real complaint you've mentioned is sorting of rooms it (probably) can be a dealbreaker for some people.
Also you don't know either me nor other person and for some incomprehensible reason assume that everyone but you and your community can enjoy the company of their loved ones constantly offline.
Grail
in reply to esc • • •esc
in reply to Grail • • •eodur
in reply to RustyNova • • •yaroto98
in reply to red_tomato • • •Dadifer
in reply to red_tomato • • •Hudell
in reply to red_green_black • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
KeithD
in reply to Hudell • • •Hudell
in reply to KeithD • • •TrickDacy
in reply to red_green_black • • •Rhaedas
in reply to cm0002 • • •like this
rem26_art y NoneOfUrBusiness like this.
ceenote
in reply to cm0002 • • •Oh yeah? But is their customer service also an essential blend of AI and dog shit?
Checkmate, europoors.
like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ceenote • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
NoneOfUrBusiness
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •ceenote
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •Programmer Humor reshared this.
raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ceenote • • •KeithD
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •raspberriesareyummy
in reply to KeithD • • •paydequeso
in reply to cm0002 • • •Ufff. Matrix/Element is rough. I tried moving my friends there and everyone bailed on me.
Self-host Fluxer instead, EU!
like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
esc
in reply to paydequeso • • •Rough in which way?
::: spoiler fluxer
I mean there is 'rough' and there is stutters while scrolling the main page like it stutters on the site that you linked.
:::
like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
raspberriesareyummy
in reply to esc • • •carrylex
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •I assume we talk about the desktop client here.
my brother in Christ, Discord and Teams both need like 2x the RAM so don't talk to me about that.
Idk left side has contacts and groups, right side chat. What exactly is not user-friendly there?
raspberriesareyummy
in reply to carrylex • • •I don't compare a hot-dog to a pile of dog poo and say "it's good food".
I could probably find a bunch of more reasons if I thought longer about it. These are all issues that don't keep me from using the app, but they are severe enough that I can't convince non-techie friends to use element as a messenger. For matrix, there are superior messengers for sure, albeit those are then limited in functionality.
ArcaneSlime
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •I'm gonna pile a few on (I've mentioned them elsewhere in this thread, but..)
Ok I admit some of that isn't UI issues.. still bad.
raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •Yeah they should be fighting me lmao (not that I want to), I'm not ok with the app. It's dogshit and so is the linux electron app, both barely work and break themselves all the time, the UI is overly complicated (even for some of the features I do like, like having three different passes [pass, recovery, and idr the third I had] was actually pretty sweet, but my less techy friends had issues, one lost his whole acct, yes he's dumb but that ain't changing, still love him lol). Even if another app actually worked (and last I saw ALL lack feature parity with Element) Matrix itself is still a metadata pissing AMDOCs (Israeli company, spied on US telcom, for those unaware) originated protocol, honestly I'm out on that alone.
I'm a Delta Chat supremacist lmao, down with Matrix.
raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •Do you have any links on the "metadata pissing" thingie? As far as I am informed to date, matrix did not send communication metadata for any given room to federated servers outside those servers who have users in the room?
ArcaneSlime
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •I'll try to find a link to the metadata issues, but for now I'll just say it's senders, receivers, timestamps, and room "joins" I think. Also reactions and read receipts aren't encrypted for sure.
Sure, "only the various server admins get the metadata," but when you don't trust the admins of the largest and "default" server? That's an issue. Also nothing stops [insert group that worries you] from spinning up a server to collect metadata, unless as I said you host your own separated server without any federation.
As for the AMDOCs connection, this is enough for me to be out, make your own decisions:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)
Matrix (protocol) - Wikipedia
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •However, I'd say the matrix protocol is more complex than "but it's from Israel".
ArcaneSlime
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •Yeah, but then plenty of spies are personable, you'd never suspect Anna Chapman was actually Anna Vasilyevna Kushchenko until she gets arrested. Actually they almost have to be somewhat personable or they can't do their jobs.
Though in 2017 Epstein was in full swing (I know, Mossad still denies involvement, but I don't trust them and Jizzlane's dad was one of their top agents until they killed him), the AMDOCs spying scandals go back to at least 2002, NSO Group released Pegasus in 2011, that same company (NSO) is made up of veterans of Israeli Intelligence Corps SIGINT unit 8200 which was founded in 1952 (also known as the "Central Collection Unit of the Intelligence Corps"). I don't trust Israel now, 10y ago, 20y ago, doesn't matter, I'm tired of surveillance no matter who is driving.
raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •raspberriesareyummy
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •carrylex
in reply to raspberriesareyummy • • •Then what is your definition of lightweight? A command line chat app?
literally loads within 3s
maybe if you didn't open it for a year yes, otherwise it's in the sub-second area
Mine is <1% for the last day. If you don't setup proper push messaging which then requires the app to constantly wake up - yeah than it might be a problem.
How exactly is this a problem?
Teams is also using Electron Microslop Edition
Just go into the settings and you will find 99%
Moving a room to a space has nothing to do with options and is a very uncommon task.
... Mostrar másThen what is your definition of lightweight? A command line chat app?
literally loads within 3s
maybe if you didn't open it for a year yes, otherwise it's in the sub-second area
Mine is <1% for the last day. If you don't setup proper push messaging which then requires the app to constantly wake up - yeah than it might be a problem.
How exactly is this a problem?
Teams is also using Electron Microslop Edition
Just go into the settings and you will find 99%
Moving a room to a space has nothing to do with options and is a very uncommon task.
ok guess you last used Element 5+ years ago?
* github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/3026
* spec.matrix.org/v1.3/client-server-api/#presence
* patrick.cloke.us/posts/2023/12/15/matrix-presence/
Yeah e.g. Whatsapp and Signal have the exact same problems expect when you keep some (sometimes not encrypted) backup somewhere.
MSC3026: "busy" presence state by babolivier · Pull Request #3026 · matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals
GitHubAzura The Spellkissed
in reply to paydequeso • • •TrickDacy
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •carrylex
in reply to TrickDacy • • •Yeah Java is also slow because back in 1999...
Try Element X please
ArcaneSlime
in reply to carrylex • • •I tried element X, it also stopped working on me like element regular did, and like this other poster complained about.
My friends also bailed on it because it wasn't working (as did I) and I'm not about to say "no guys some random lemmy user says it's good now." They'll reply "what the fuck is lemmy and why switch back from Delta Chat while it's working so well?"
Also there's NO way I'll be able to convince the one who saw the CP spam in the Raspberry Pi room to go back, and there's no way I'm gonna recommend to my parents and shit that they use a chat app that very likely could spam them with it (not likely they'd find the public rooms, still not taking the chance.) I don't really need to be known as "the guy recommending the CP app," personally.
And I had to basically set it up for every contact I was able to convince, meanwhile when we switched to Delta Chat I just sent the invite link and they made accts and bam, no problem, and now the recent update made that even easier because instead of just defaulting to nine.testrun.
... Mostrar másI tried element X, it also stopped working on me like element regular did, and like this other poster complained about.
My friends also bailed on it because it wasn't working (as did I) and I'm not about to say "no guys some random lemmy user says it's good now." They'll reply "what the fuck is lemmy and why switch back from Delta Chat while it's working so well?"
Also there's NO way I'll be able to convince the one who saw the CP spam in the Raspberry Pi room to go back, and there's no way I'm gonna recommend to my parents and shit that they use a chat app that very likely could spam them with it (not likely they'd find the public rooms, still not taking the chance.) I don't really need to be known as "the guy recommending the CP app," personally.
And I had to basically set it up for every contact I was able to convince, meanwhile when we switched to Delta Chat I just sent the invite link and they made accts and bam, no problem, and now the recent update made that even easier because instead of just defaulting to nine.testrun.org it picks a few relays at random, so now I don't even have to set up multi-relay for them (aside from the contacts I got on before this update) next time I see them in person.
AnyOldName3
in reply to paydequeso • • •eodur
in reply to AnyOldName3 • • •majster
in reply to paydequeso • • •SleeplessCityLights
in reply to majster • • •majster
in reply to SleeplessCityLights • • •SleeplessCityLights
in reply to majster • • •Azura The Spellkissed
in reply to cm0002 • • •Okay, hear me out: what if you click on a contact in your contact list and start typing a message, but instead of writing in the message field, it instead focused a random contact in your contract list whose name starts with the last letter you typed. Anyone? People love this feature, right?
I'm not too convinced FLOSS devs are mentally flexible enough to implement all of the glory of MS Teams.
like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
esc
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Elvith Ma'for
in reply to esc • • •Blackmist
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •I love the feature where I paste something into an email, and then it stops me typing by popping up a useless menu.
My second favourite is the one where you're typing, and suddenly it starts treating all your keypresses as shortcuts and deleting things. I love that.
And don't even get me started on Outlook search. I can no longer find any emails, even by typing in the things that were on them.
But hey, at least an admin can fuck it all up from one place!
like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Kairos
in reply to Blackmist • • •Goodeye8
in reply to Kairos • • •Kairos
in reply to Goodeye8 • • •Valmond
in reply to Kairos • • •As a senior software person, I can tell you that that is absolutely not the problem.
It's never refactoring, pushing useless crap and vibe coding. On the top of my head.
WhyJiffie
in reply to Kairos • • •Jesus_666
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •How about the feature where you get a notification that someone said something in a group chat but if you click on the notification it opens the private chat with that person instead?
Or the one where you enable recording a meeting and only after the meeting does it tell you that it couldn't actually save anything to OneDrive so there's no recording? That's some advanced UX engineering right there.
Or the one where it hides less used "applications" and decides that the only ones it should hide are the chat and the calendar. Not everyone can come up with that.
Or how it shows a banner telling you to update even if your client is company-managed and especially if you're using their web client.
FLOSS can't hope to compete at that level.
ThatGuy46475
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Programmer Humor reshared this.
adhocfungus
in reply to ThatGuy46475 • • •trashman
in reply to ThatGuy46475 • • •You're underselling it! Sure, what you discribe would be a nice feature, but what makes it truly great is the combination with a slow and unresponsive UI. It's thought provoking genius!
Did it register the click or do I have to try again? Maybe I should meditate to fully harvest the value of this 0.5s Zen moment, because it also might just take much longer this time? Does a tree fall, when there is no one to witness it? Does a click matter if it is inside Teams?
like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
kazerniel
in reply to ThatGuy46475 • • •Buddahriffic
in reply to ThatGuy46475 • • •Programmer Humor reshared this.
pHr34kY
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Bytemeister
in reply to pHr34kY • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Azura The Spellkissed
in reply to Bytemeister • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Buddahriffic
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •Azura The Spellkissed
in reply to Buddahriffic • • •Buddahriffic
in reply to Azura The Spellkissed • • •Yeah, there's that angle also. Like how you can start phoning it in when you have a shitty manager that kills your passion. I have a feeling that that is part of the overall corporate culture at MS rather than just the case for people unlucky with which manager they ended up with.
Assuming you meant that "focus" as a pun that refers to their ability to focus on their work to the point of doing it well.
If you meant that it might have been some rogue developer that snuck in that change instead of a rogue manager, yeah, that's also possible.
BuckFutter
in reply to cm0002 • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to cm0002 • • •Hey kids, try this neat trick:
during a Teams meeting, mention a very esoteric product 2-3X .
Within a week, someone will email you an offer to buy that product.
Viking_Hippie
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •eodur
in reply to cm0002 • • •Imgonnatrythis
in reply to cm0002 • • •like this
YoSoySnekBoi y NoneOfUrBusiness like this.
Jankatarch
in reply to Imgonnatrythis • • •Shit is negative.
Absolute shit is positive.
Therefore absolute shit > teams.
Qed.
like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Viking_Hippie
in reply to Jankatarch • • •THE absolute shit would be positive. Absolute shit is negative. Absolutely.
KeithD
in reply to Viking_Hippie • • •Absolute value - Wikipedia
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Viking_Hippie
in reply to KeithD • • •myyass
in reply to cm0002 • • •Trail
in reply to myyass • • •myyass
in reply to Trail • • •I guess? Okay this is kind of a mean take on it, from my experience, with having managed a company of over 300--which is tiny, if you would stfu and fill out your sheet and send me an email, I would prefer that. I already did your background check and dive.
I know this isn't a very "professional" take but that's how it's always been for me. The amount of parties and alcohol is really the surprising part.
Valmond
in reply to myyass • • •But how are you going to decide who's gonna get promoted by skin color? And when are you going to see those people squirm in front of you? Checkmate.
/s
myyass
in reply to Valmond • • •Valmond
in reply to myyass • • •myyass
in reply to Valmond • • •onlinepersona
in reply to myyass • • •myyass
in reply to onlinepersona • • •I think the voice codecs work really well on teamspeak. Discord is a really heavy mess. Teams is... no thank you.
The angle I was focusing on is something that's light and can be used anywhere.
But come on... the irony... Teams vs Team Speak?
onlinepersona
in reply to myyass • • •myyass
in reply to onlinepersona • • •Programmer Humor reshared this.
Tja
in reply to myyass • • •I spend half my day in meetings with colleagues, partners and clients and it adds a lot.
If the other person is speaking in a language where you are not native / fluent, seeing their mouth helps. I'm experimenting with AI-based live transcription (eww, AI, slop, I get it) but it only works real time with English at the moment.
If you are explaining something you can see if they are following, if they are skeptical about certain claims, etc. Many cultures are very conflict-averse and won't challenge you directly, or even ask for clarification.
And for me personally it helps me remember the person much better, and remember what we talked about last time when I see the face again.
I'd argue that is the opposite of futuristic, it helps our primitive brains work as they are used to.
WhyJiffie
in reply to Tja • • •the real problem there is not AI slop, but if you are basically uploading their voice to a company. if you are doing it locally, I would say fine. LLMs are better (not flawless) with translation than facts.
Tja
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •It runs locally on my laptop, no upload anywhere, no recording either. I would be fired in an instant otherwise.
EDIT: It's a forked version of this project, in case anyone is interested: github.com/pasrom/meeting-transcriber
GitHub - pasrom/meeting-transcriber: On-device meeting transcriber for macOS — auto-records Teams/Zoom/Webex, transcribes & separates speakers locally. No cloud. Open-source alternative to Otter/Granola/Fireflies.
GitHubmyyass
in reply to Tja • • •I guess if it helps you.
"Many cultures are very conflict-averse and won’t challenge you directly, or even ask for clarification."
I actually get this, especially if they have to answer to you. I always thought this was dumb, like it doesn't make me any different than any other person just because I'm in meetings with high ranking officials. The whole office was scared of me when I got the job. And I'm like ... is it because I'm walking around with a cane and looking like Dr House?
Shanmugha
in reply to cm0002 • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
Hupf
in reply to Shanmugha • • •onlinepersona
in reply to cm0002 • • •like this
NoneOfUrBusiness likes this.
sanzky
in reply to onlinepersona • • •diaphragmwp
in reply to sanzky • • •Most accurate description of Element I've ever heard to be honest. It's literally just Discord, with all of it's bloat, but with a protocol that wants to have "security" bolted on. And all of the security related dialogs have race conditions in them. Actually, not just in Element, all clients, even nheko and fluffychat, have race conditions in the fucking security dialogs. All of my devices are just unverified now, I just gave up.
XMPP at least functions reliably, if you ignore all of the protocol extensions and use it like IRC with images of course.
Tox supermacy! Though the main and only good Android client got archived. But like, whatever. Fuck phones anyway.
Valmond
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •Yeah but XMPP sounds so techy you know... /s
I bet that if someone scraped together the bare minimum and found a catchy name it'd be the winner easily.
Et-tu-Brutus would slay IMO.
diaphragmwp
in reply to Valmond • • •astrachat.com/ paid XMPP. It claims the US army, apart from a few other government entities around the world, use it. I find this funny because this implies someone integrated Grok into XMPP.
Also, the old name for XMPP is Jabber. That sounds less techy, you know.
Welcome to AstraChat.
astrachat.comValmond
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •WhyJiffie
in reply to Valmond • • •the trick is to not mention XMPP to the end users. if they dig deep in the app settings they can find it out, but otherwise all that end users need to know is just, download the app named conversations, and use this domain and username. the domain could likely be hidden from them by deep linking, and sending the link in a company email. then they just need to log in as anywhere else.
exdor
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •Tox did their own insecure crypto and got roasted by the Wireguard dev, now they are apparently rewriting it.
I agree that Matrix is complex but personally never had issues with key verification. Just try to restart it, maybe on the other device?
diaphragmwp
in reply to exdor • • •Everyone does crypto in their own way and roasts each other. On a quantum physical mathematical psychological level unidentified flying object Yugoslavia something something. I only really believe stuff in relation to exploits when there's a demo.
furry toaster
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •diaphragmwp
in reply to furry toaster • • •Here, the webapps are measured via the very scientific method of Firefox about:processes, doesn't even account Firefox itself which is like 760 megs (decimal MB or MiB? I am not sure) if I were to believe it.
On amd64, loonix with glibc and all that crap, zero memory pressure (assuming I am reading "shared" correctly in htop which I assume to be libraries like glibc and glib):
... Mostrar más- Discord: starts at 800 megs, garbage collects down to 704 to 710-ish (overburned CD size?); turning on/off equicord doesn't affect it much
- Element: 367 mystery units after clicking around for a while, 341 unfocused
- Nheko: 362 MiB, 201MiB shared (probably with Firefox, can't close cuz I am typing here rn)
- Dino: 334MiB, 116 shared (probably with Firefox)
- Mumble (random server with a long text greeting and nobody in voice): 169MiB, 130MiB shared.
- random forum with a bunch of emotes and table decorations (for comparison sake): 69
Here, the webapps are measured via the very scientific method of Firefox about:processes, doesn't even account Firefox itself which is like 760 megs (decimal MB or MiB? I am not sure) if I were to believe it.
On amd64, loonix with glibc and all that crap, zero memory pressure (assuming I am reading "shared" correctly in htop which I assume to be libraries like glibc and glib):
- Discord: starts at 800 megs, garbage collects down to 704 to 710-ish (overburned CD size?); turning on/off equicord doesn't affect it much
- Element: 367 mystery units after clicking around for a while, 341 unfocused
- Nheko: 362 MiB, 201MiB shared (probably with Firefox, can't close cuz I am typing here rn)
- Dino: 334MiB, 116 shared (probably with Firefox)
- Mumble (random server with a long text greeting and nobody in voice): 169MiB, 130MiB shared.
- random forum with a bunch of emotes and table decorations (for comparison sake): 69 meters (NICE)
- qwebirc (1 server): 61 megs
- Weechat (6 servers): 65392 bytes, out of which 33396 shared (with system daemons I am guessing).
- Toxic: 44648 bytes, out of which 0 are shared. Plus ~90000 for Alacritty (65160 shared when multiple).
lmao
Hedgewars! It's a blast!
hedgewars.orgArcaneSlime
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •Yeah I gave up on Element/Matrix too, for other reasons.
First of all the clients don't work for shit and every update breaks something IME, got tired of that. Also for all of my normie friends and family it was "too hard" to use, I disagree, but regardless what good is a chat app if I have nobody to use it with? Further, the one friend I did convince to join also joined the public Ras Pi room, and some dickhead posted CP in it, he saw, and then I had to explain "no, this isn't a 'pedo app,' that is spam and they get banned," and I'm gonna be real I don't want to have to do that again and I can't in good faith recommend my mother use a goddamn app that very possibly could spam her with CP.
So, I moved to Delta Chat. Fixes all those problems, no complaints. Easy to use, easy onboarding, no discoverability, just chats.
WhyJiffie
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •what security dialogs? and what race conditions? do you know what that means, or are you just throwing around words?
if you mean the "verify your new device" dialog, yeah, it has a problem. it won't appear most of the time on clients that were not open when you sent the verification request from the new device. I don't know why, and this is not comfortable, but then I can start verification from a device I already have, and it will work. or I can also just fill in the password from my password manager, which you surely have too.
but I haven't seen other problems with it recently.
which does not even have a bolted on security that way.
calling element classic good is a bit of a stretch. it was very slow.
diaphragmwp
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •That series of dialogs and pretty much everything else, including "verified devices" menu. Also, apart from race conditions it's often just desync. Like, right now for me, nheko and Element say everything is unverified but fluffychat says everything including itself is verified.
Not Element Classic, I meant aTox (Tox for Android). It still functions, though.
WhyJiffie
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •its not desynced, it is just not presented well. I think when it shows whether another device was verified, it actually does not show if you have completed verification of that device on your account, but instead whether that device is trusted by the current one (for purposes of sharing keys and whatever). in short, it's not "the user account trusts the device", but "this device trusts that device".
when you verify device A with device B, they will mutually trust each other. if device B already trusted devices C and D, device A will immediately start trusting them too.
if you then log in on device E and you don't verify it with any of the others, it will basically form a distinct "trust group".
in your case it seems there are also cases when device A says it trusts B, but B says it does not trust A. how long ago did you verify your nheko, element and fluffychat devices? it looks like their verification could
... Mostrar másits not desynced, it is just not presented well. I think when it shows whether another device was verified, it actually does not show if you have completed verification of that device on your account, but instead whether that device is trusted by the current one (for purposes of sharing keys and whatever). in short, it's not "the user account trusts the device", but "this device trusts that device".
when you verify device A with device B, they will mutually trust each other. if device B already trusted devices C and D, device A will immediately start trusting them too.
if you then log in on device E and you don't verify it with any of the others, it will basically form a distinct "trust group".
in your case it seems there are also cases when device A says it trusts B, but B says it does not trust A. how long ago did you verify your nheko, element and fluffychat devices? it looks like their verification could not complete, maybe one of them had a bug at the time or crashed before properly saving its database.
both issues won't solve themselves automatically, you will have to verify the unverified device again. or if it does not work, report the problem with logs with the function in the app, on both sides.
I see. tox seems to be faring worse in security. in matrix, encryption is optional in the protocol, but it's built on well studied cryptosystem. so far when it fails, it's people not being able to read messages they should, not unexpected people being able to read messages. and that's because of flaws in key distribution.
in tox, it seems encryption is mandatory, but they roll their own cryptosystem. and their cryptosystem has flaws that nonexperts commonly run into
Jason Donenfeld, wireguard creator to expert:
github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426
downvote was not me.
Tox Handshake Vulnerable to KCI · Issue #426 · TokTok/c-toxcore
zx2c4 (GitHub)diaphragmwp
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •Ah, verification and trust are separate. Cool.
Well, it was like 2 years ago? I had a different Element session than now (new one now for testing), nheko and fluffychat, and I pressed every possible button and nothing happened. When I open nheko, a dialog box says "Activate encryption"; "to make this device trusted {blah blah blah}" with a big "Verify" button. Pressing it does the same as closing the dialog, so a whole lot of nothing. Same right now. I did try logging out and back in on different devices, back then only though.
Because that's how it's routed, yes. Peer to peer with fewer points of centralization (still there for node discovery and TCP<>UDP tunnels and shit). The message encryption and the transport encryption are the same.
I stopped reading there. I mean, good thing to know that it's possible (especially for potential punks using it and whatnot), but I feel like opsec is fucked regardless in this case.
Tox Handshake Vulnerable to KCI · Issue #426 · TokTok/c-toxcore
zx2c4 (GitHub)WhyJiffie
in reply to diaphragmwp • • •I don't use nheko, I think it should have shown a menu saying something like "waiting to accept verification request". thats what other clients do.
did you have any other client opened on another device when you pressed verify?
Agent641
in reply to sanzky • • •Programmer Humor reshared this.
rumba
in reply to Agent641 • • •It's hard to get people to move from what they know and use to something else. If you moved them to Google, they'd say it's shit. Same for Zoom. They all do some stuff better than others.
Element is perfectly servicable. They're using Element Pro which is billing itself as built for government. The first problem is they called it pro, which sets expectations higher than they should be. It's not going to make them go WOW this is so much better at first glance.
Trying to onboard a gigantic number of people is going to be difficult for a system that doesn't already have a gigantic number of people on it. I can only imagine how rough the system is at the moment, but it'll work out.
fyzzlefry
in reply to rumba • • •rumba
in reply to fyzzlefry • • •Kairos
in reply to Agent641 • • •abc
in reply to Agent641 • • •I'm able to use it also, perhaps due to 40 years of computing experience, but .... for people used to something like Slack, probably not that great.
I keep wishing that somebody would replace Matrix with something we don't have to be so embarrased about.
MonkeMischief
in reply to abc • • •UnLocoPoco
in reply to sanzky • • •Programmer Humor reshared this.
rockmeat
in reply to UnLocoPoco • • •FG_3479
in reply to UnLocoPoco • • •UnLocoPoco
in reply to FG_3479 • • •Leon
in reply to UnLocoPoco • • •musubibreakfast
in reply to Leon • • •Leon
in reply to musubibreakfast • • •HerbGrower
in reply to sanzky • • •SleeplessCityLights
in reply to sanzky • • •Carlos Solís
in reply to cm0002 • •Programmer Humor reshared this.