[serious] Why is Lemmy community generaly against AI?
I noticed almost everybody here agrees that all AI is bad, and anything produced by AI is slop. and refuse to use any software made in part or in whole with AI or help of AI?
Please mention your background and usage of AI with your answer.
Please mention your background and usage of AI with your answer.
ghost_laptop
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messageorenj [he/they]
in reply to ghost_laptop • • • Public Messageghost_laptop
in reply to orenj [he/they] • • • Public MessageOrbital [none/use name]
in reply to ghost_laptop • • • Public MessageAll kidding aside, your generic Hexbear isn't a liberal.
Barring profound social change, decisions around AI will be made by the billionaire class. Do you trust them? Do you expect traction when petioning their lawmakers for a redress of grievances or sharing your thoughts with them on the direction of society?
ghost_laptop
in reply to Orbital [none/use name] • • • Public MessageCarlos Solís
in reply to dragnucs • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to Carlos Solís • • • Public MessageCarlos Solís
in reply to dragnucs • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to Carlos Solís • • • Public Messagekoka_noodles
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageShimitar
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageNo idea.
But not everybody is against ai. I am not. I am about regulating and find ethical approach to AI, which is pretty substantially different. I use ai.
But those advocating against will always have a louder mouth. And it will be useless anyway, since ai is here to stay.
dragnucs
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public Messagegraycloud
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageIf you want to convince someone of something, you've got to convince them it is beneficial for them to do or not do what you want. Otherwise, it comes off like you're trying to selfishly impose your own will onto others.
If someone says that AI speeds up their workflow (which they need to live and remain housed), and your response is "but it's bad for moral reasons" you're saying that your moral reasons matter more than the other person's ability to earn money... A better idea would be to try to make them see that an ai subscription is a waste of money and doesn't actually speed up their workflow.
krolden
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public MessageShimitar
in reply to krolden • • • Public MessageRunning local models will never be illegal. But maybe regulating ai could help bring down the hardware cost, by limiting scalping and data center uncontrolled growth.
And having cheaper hrdware would bring down the entry barrier costs and help make local ai more widespread
Tabitha ☢️[she/her]
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public Messagekoka_noodles
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public Message|But those advocating against will always have a louder mouth.
Why do you claim this ?
Shimitar
in reply to koka_noodles • • • Public Messagekoka_noodles
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public Message|Because of many, only a few complains usually.
I don't understand that sentence.
What makes you believe that complainers have stronger beliefs?
Shimitar
in reply to koka_noodles • • • Public MessageThey know what is right and wrong. So they complain .
They believe they know, of course. Dowsn mean they actually know right.
koka_noodles
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public MessageShimitar
in reply to koka_noodles • • • Public MessageMan, do you even browse Lemmy or are you just an llm bot?
Every post on AI is filled with anti AI people.
koka_noodles
in reply to Shimitar • • • Public Messagedisregardable
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageIt's because we are adults, so we already have better skills than a general LLM. We learned to read, write, and research in school. While I personally didn't go to art school, many people did, and they developed skills that allow them to make better art than a general use art AI.
To us, AI is just wasting our time, because it does what we can already do but worse.
Children are in an unfortunate trap, where they need to spend years producing work that is worse than the LLM to eventually be able to develop the skillset to surpass the LLM. Buying into the idea that it makes your work faster or easier is a trap. You'll be permanently dependent on it.
dragnucs
in reply to disregardable • • • Public MessageI agree with you generally. However can you clarify please when you say "does what we can already do but worse". Can you please clarify ? What is your use of AI? Software development? Engineering? Architecture? Document editing? General usage and research? Paid and advanced models vs free or simple ones?
Because how you use it with give you a varying set of results.
concrete_baby
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to concrete_baby • • • Public Messageemergencyfood
in reply to disregardable • • • Public MessageCan you read a thousand pages of tech documentation and find every reference that could be relevant to the issue you're having in minutes? Then no, you don't always have 'better skills than a general LLM'. Humans are better at some things. Computers are better at some things. Use the right tool for the job.
disregardable
in reply to emergencyfood • • • Public Messageemergencyfood
in reply to disregardable • • • Public Messagedisregardable
in reply to emergencyfood • • • Public MessageCoCounsel is a professional legal service offered by WestLaw. WestLaw is one of the two major legal information companies. They were the ones who transitioned the law from books and brought it online in the 90s. Their dataset is exclusively their databases, which I would guess contain between 90-99% of all American Law ever written.
CoCounsel does exactly what you said in your earlier comment. It scans thousands of legal documents to find exactly what you’re looking for. If I want to find a case that talks about both the 4th amendment during a jurisdictional issue, it can instantly find a case with a a direct quote.
In this case, I asked it to do a multi-step process: find ~50 cases referenced in a specific document, alphabetize them, and add a two sentence summary below each one. That was too much for it to handle at once. It got confused.
emergencyfood
in reply to disregardable • • • Public MessageIn the US, each state can have its own laws, right? How does the AI handle this?
Also, how does it understand grammar? Wouldn't it first need to be trained on a large corpus of text?
slazer2au
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageWhy do we need to justify our options? It is OK to not like a technology that is killing the world? A technology where we have movies of it taking over the world and murdering the human race. A technology that has yet to turn a profit despite trillions of dollars funnelled into it.
No, why don't you justify your want for destroying the planet and species.
graycloud
in reply to slazer2au • • • Public Messagesbv
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageThere are a lot of software developers on Lemmy.
AI is being pushed as a software development tool. It tends to remove the fun part of our jobs (coding, debugging, optimizing) and relegates us to the shitty parts (code review).
We don't like that.
Ajen
in reply to sbv • • • Public Messagenfreak
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageIt's legitimately no different than cryptocurrency and NFTs, but this is the techbro scam that finally stuck after flinging shit against the wall over and over.
The training data sources are built destructively, without any consent from the artists, writers, programmers, anyone whose data is pulled into these models. The information these things spit out usually has so many inaccuracies - search engines are fucked, software is built without understanding a damn thing it actually does, poor translations of documentation are made public, the list goes on.
On top of that, data centers are one of the biggest environmental nightmares we've ever seen. Why are we pushing these so hard in the middle of a goddamn climate crisis?
There's genuinely not a single thing it actually does well, and the only reason it genuinely took off is because investors in the same 5 companies are patting each other on the back.
It's also worth mentioning how chatbots built off this stuff are designed to always be extraordinarily friendly and confirming to the user. It
... Mostrar másIt's legitimately no different than cryptocurrency and NFTs, but this is the techbro scam that finally stuck after flinging shit against the wall over and over.
The training data sources are built destructively, without any consent from the artists, writers, programmers, anyone whose data is pulled into these models. The information these things spit out usually has so many inaccuracies - search engines are fucked, software is built without understanding a damn thing it actually does, poor translations of documentation are made public, the list goes on.
On top of that, data centers are one of the biggest environmental nightmares we've ever seen. Why are we pushing these so hard in the middle of a goddamn climate crisis?
There's genuinely not a single thing it actually does well, and the only reason it genuinely took off is because investors in the same 5 companies are patting each other on the back.
It's also worth mentioning how chatbots built off this stuff are designed to always be extraordinarily friendly and confirming to the user. It's such a massive factor contributing to AI psychosis, to the point that there people who legitimately believe these things are sentient and conscience. Meanwhile we've already seen just how easily these closed source models and be tweaked to spit out pure propaganda, making them an extremely valuable political tool - it's no wonder fascists love this shit so much.
brucethemoose
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageBecause it got enshittified and politicized by Tech Bros.
If you wanna tell me about the usefulness of LLMs, you are preaching to the choir. I was playing with GTP-J 6B finetunes in 2022. I am quantizing some weights as I type.
However, you can’t look at me with a straight face and tell me everything is okay in this space. It’s a nightmare, a giant scam that is going to implode.
As Lemmy is a refuge for people who see how caustic mainstream social media is, folks here are particularly sensitive to the issues surrounding “AI” too.
In other words, Lemmy literally selects for enshittification sensitivity.
orenj [he/they]
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagefaythofdragons
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageGorillatactics [none/use name]
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to Gorillatactics [none/use name] • • • Public Messagedropdrip
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageSomething you're not acknowledging is that this technology stems from surveillance-capitalism and the surveillance-state. Google et al were financed to solve the needs of the state. Google search for consumers was a by-product from the state's need and desire to make sense of their mass-surveillance programs.
Surveillance-capitalism operates under complete deception. Pokemon Go players didn't know they were collecting data for autonomous-murder-drones.
Solving Google's Captchas was unpaid labour: you were creating data for Google's OCR program and now you're creating data for
... Mostrar másSomething you're not acknowledging is that this technology stems from surveillance-capitalism and the surveillance-state. Google et al were financed to solve the needs of the state. Google search for consumers was a by-product from the state's need and desire to make sense of their mass-surveillance programs.
Surveillance-capitalism operates under complete deception. Pokemon Go players didn't know they were collecting data for autonomous-murder-drones.
Solving Google's Captchas was unpaid labour: you were creating data for Google's OCR program and now you're creating data for autonomous cars or whatever their investors want you to toil on next.
Out of all this theft, unpaid labour and intrusive surveillance what does the working class get? Housing costs are increasing. Food costs are increasing. Poverty is increasing. What is AI going to do for us? It's not building houses. It's not harvesting crops. It's not giving the working class any material benefit, but is further degrading living conditions. Enjoy the endless drone of a data-center! Enjoy breathing the fumes of gas-turbines! Enjoy talking to chatbots and never a human!
AI is deployed as a barrier between the working class and businesses. AI is deployed to decrease labour costs. AI is deployed to kill. The fact you can create text, images, videos and audios that mimic reality only means more surveillance on the working class because digital-signals can be faked absolutely and are now suspect by default.
You can't eat what AI creates--it is completely immaterial, but it is being used to commit genocide. I'm sure that warms the cockles of the hearts in all of us.
AI-assisted targeting in the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)LadyCajAsca [she/her, comrade/them]
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to LadyCajAsca [she/her, comrade/them] • • • Public Messagefox [comrade/them]
in reply to LadyCajAsca [she/her, comrade/them] • • • Public MessageTabitha ☢️[she/her]
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messageexcept for me I'm special, when I tell chapGTP to make cool shit it's because I'm a genius with good taste
Tabitha ☢️[she/her]
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagerobot_dog_with_gun [they/them]
in reply to Tabitha ☢️[she/her] • • • Public Messagenah i'd still be mad about low effort low quality garbage that people spew all over from copypasting wrong information they could've spent five seconds looking up to vibe-coded projects that work for a minute or two and then crash, to videos with shit scripts and incorrect graphics, or long emails they didn't care enough to write so i shouldn't be expected to read.
yeah most things people make are crap because most people aren't creative professionals but drastically lowering the work it takes to shit in my mouth and eyes has made everything drastically worse.
dragnucs
in reply to robot_dog_with_gun [they/them] • • • Public Messagewhotookkarl
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageIf the people building and hosting models won't build them from ethically sourced data and won't host them without disrupting or negatively impacting the communities they are hosted in (noise pollution, power and water rates increasing, layoffs, diesel generators, etc) then I won't use them and would advocate against their use.
I don't expect the tech to go away but you can make a hammer from stolen resources and use it to harm individuals and communities or you can build it from ethically sourced material and use it to build things people need. If there's an ethically sourced model quantized to run on commodity hardware locally without contributing to further wealth inequality, theft, and community disruption I won't have the same moral objections to using it as I would for any of the current corporate owned llms.
dragnucs
in reply to whotookkarl • • • Public MessageI agree with you on most part and value your reasonable response. However, before we can get AI to run ethically on commodity hardware, I guess most of us will not be here, or will be very tired of it. We may need a major break thru in hardware to be able to run it and make productive use of it. I am continually in search of ways to run it locally and retain the same level of productivity to using it over the cloud. But truth is current state is still not ready for self hosting LLMs.
So I respect your stand point but be prepared that a change for the better is going to take a lot of time.
graycloud
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to graycloud • • • Public Messagegraycloud
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagedragnucs
in reply to graycloud • • • Public MessageClassIsOver [none/use name, any]
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageI'm a graphic designer.
The entire point of AI as it exists in the western imperialist world is to cut out workers, labor rights, and the means of production by automating jobs, capturing processing power to replace brain power, and essentially to funnel money from consumers to those who control AI. Those companies are using our materials, our work, our capital, and our attention to train their models, and NONE of it is meant to make our material conditions better. What do we get from it now? Text that sounds like a middle manager, and that's factually correct as often as one. Images that look like shit, and that are making people dumber. Cars that disable their AI at the last possible moment specifically to avoid responsibility, and that doesn't work well-enough to be road legal under ideal circumstances. Search engine answers that show nothing but that AI has automated being confidently wrong on the internet. Entire towns that no longer have water or electricity, but do have constant jet noise, diesel pollution and markedly higher temperatures.
We aren't eve
... Mostrar másI'm a graphic designer.
The entire point of AI as it exists in the western imperialist world is to cut out workers, labor rights, and the means of production by automating jobs, capturing processing power to replace brain power, and essentially to funnel money from consumers to those who control AI. Those companies are using our materials, our work, our capital, and our attention to train their models, and NONE of it is meant to make our material conditions better. What do we get from it now? Text that sounds like a middle manager, and that's factually correct as often as one. Images that look like shit, and that are making people dumber. Cars that disable their AI at the last possible moment specifically to avoid responsibility, and that doesn't work well-enough to be road legal under ideal circumstances. Search engine answers that show nothing but that AI has automated being confidently wrong on the internet. Entire towns that no longer have water or electricity, but do have constant jet noise, diesel pollution and markedly higher temperatures.
We aren't even at a stage where anyone but Nvidia is actually getting anything out of it. Budgets aren't being saved because companies are using AI, they're just spending the money on AI instead of for actual work. It's a cult. It's operating as a cult, and for some reason, no one is treating it as if it's a cult except "Rationalists", who are balls deep in it because it's a cult.
dragnucs
in reply to ClassIsOver [none/use name, any] • • • Public MessageAs I understand people in design see the worst part. I think that is because design has a huge artistic part. But when other people do it, they do not care about art, they just want to to pass some information even if it makes my eyes bleed and make my cognitive load spike thru the roof (I would be exhausted by the end of the day looking at all the slop). But truth is, those kind of people you mention wanted this situation even before AI and GenAI was a thing, they just did not have a way to do it. Now they have it. Most Big companies do not reason in the way we real humans do. They want to make money, so they build a system that makes them money, then they keep tweaking it to make even more money. They don't care about the actual product or how it is made. They care about making money.
That is why we have the situation you describe.
ClassIsOver [none/use name, any]
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagecoltn
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagelmao, honestly from what i've seen lemmy is very much pro slop -- and it's been quite disheartening. i've mostly just stayed on mastodon lately cause i don't have the bandwidth to fight with people who say "but local models!" ... nah fuck that.
... Mostrar másLLM's are a racist, fascist, anti-human, anti-social, anti-intellectual, regressive, inefficient, ecoterrorist, counter-revolutionary, class traitor technology. Even with open weights / open models ran locally, it still only reduces peoples capacity to learn, create and build community. It still pushes us as a society apart. There are technologies that can be up lifting and constructive, but this isn't one. There is no reason to chase more lines of code, or more pages in a book -- instead chasing to better understand, better communicate, better organize together.
Every "leftist" person on lemmy who is pro local llm's, is just e
lmao, honestly from what i've seen lemmy is very much pro slop -- and it's been quite disheartening. i've mostly just stayed on mastodon lately cause i don't have the bandwidth to fight with people who say "but local models!" ... nah fuck that.
LLM's are a racist, fascist, anti-human, anti-social, anti-intellectual, regressive, inefficient, ecoterrorist, counter-revolutionary, class traitor technology. Even with open weights / open models ran locally, it still only reduces peoples capacity to learn, create and build community. It still pushes us as a society apart. There are technologies that can be up lifting and constructive, but this isn't one. There is no reason to chase more lines of code, or more pages in a book -- instead chasing to better understand, better communicate, better organize together.
Every "leftist" person on lemmy who is pro local llm's, is just excited about the technology and that leaves very little room for organizing and utilizing this unique time where there could be a non-partisan reason to organize against the oligarchs and fascists who are in power in much of the world right now.
I dabbled with AI usage for a while, ran some local models, would try whatever was the current best for when there was a project that I didn't really want to put the effort into learning about--and I found it was just always regressive and annoying. I'd brick hardware, or my context would get so big that the output would continue to become more sloppy.
I started just going back to reading documentation, and it was just always easier. It was always easier to just grep for whatever I needed. Whenever I'd go back to simply trying to understand the problem and just fucking read, I'd feel almost like a haze being lifted.
I think this is the point where I realized, most complaints that people have with software etc are already solved issues that most "tech" refuses to implement or has enshitified. So instead of just solving the problem in a predictive / deterministic way, we are instead being sold a technology that will burn incredible amounts of fuel, will requires incredible amounts of resources all to what--search through my email? More slowly than what was developed in the 70's would.
Then I read 'Blood in the machine' and 'End times fascism', watched 'ghost in the machine' and read more most and articles... The sheer mass amount of violence and suffering created is unimaginable.
I think my stance is mostly, even without the ethical issues -- what use would this technology even have? Why would I want a computer to do the learning and creating, when I could instead enjoy the work of my friends, and enjoy creating something for others; while building a community. and community is the #1 way to curb fascism.
also my computing is more and more evolving into something more similar to permacomputing. My music and art taste has always been more into finding & connecting with artists locally, or at least artists who I can actually interact with and understand. Outsourcing these things to a machine would not bring any joy.
I Am An AI Hater
moser’s frame shopemergencyfood
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageMost lemmy users live in countries which are run for a rich few, rather than the general public. Technology, including AI, is also used to benefit the rich, often at the cost of the rest of the population. Unfortunately this leads to people hating the technology rather than the political system.
There was a recent survey where they pointed out how people in English-speaking countries are most concerned about AI (because it is used against the people there) while people in the Global South are most positive about it (because it is used to benefit them). Here's the summary chart:-
hexagonwin
in reply to emergencyfood • • • Public Messageemergencyfood
in reply to hexagonwin • • • Public MessageHmm yes South Korea isn't a Global South country. It's closer to Western countries in terms of politics and economic situation.
Btw is there an age-based or rural-urban division in perception of AI?
hexagonwin
in reply to emergencyfood • • • Public Messagerural-urban division: don't think so. even rural areas are pretty urbanized(?) and there isn't that much of a cultural? difference overall
age-based: i think yes, not much different from other countries. older people not being able to tell ai image/videos for example.
UltraGiGaGigantic
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageBJW
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Messagewhats_a_lemmy
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public MessageI work in software. Just in day to day:
- lazy people are now using AI to slop out meaningless drivel at me rather than taking five minutes to articulate an actual thought
- shit is frequently broken because people surrender their thinking to the LLMs, don't understand what the agents are doing, and don't check the work output
Broadly:
- the industry is built on theft and whitewashing of human effort
- fraudulent valuations and circular dealing
- the frontier AI companies are all run by lying sociopaths
- and yet the global economy now hinges on a handful of AI or AI-adjacent companies
- many corporate types are now convinced they don't need real human labor anymore, and treat the working class accordingly
- AI is an incredible force multiplier for scamming/spamming
- hyperscaler data center build out is mathematically impossible, environmentally ruinous, and harmful to your health
- LLMs are literally making us stupider
Malica
in reply to dragnucs • • • Public Message